Summer Plans?

[Solaphar]

That's really what I've been planning for this other contest: pass/fail system. It's like a project, with some contest mechanics used as quality control. (Still not sure if I should call it "contest" or "project". Maybe "conject" or "protest"??)

Now what would be the best way to apply this for the album? First, what is the quality control objective: excluding only the songs that have nothing to do with the theme (the "troll" songs)? and/or excluding the songs most people dislike musically? A score margin could be used, or yes/no votes. Panel or community. What do you think? I think communal yes/no votes would be good, provided people don't vote no too easily and understand the criteria well enough. In the end it shouldn't be strict and you should only vote no if you honestly want the song to be discarded. In that regard, I'd say if a song gets 50% yes and 50% no, it still counts as a yes.

This is actually what I'm afraid of... That only the "popular" stuff will be included.

Like I said, I'd suggest we just have a specific set of criteria stated upfront, and then anything that meets those criteria is included, while anything that doesn't is out. Pretty simple, right? And this should also mean that there's no reason any participant need be excluded, provided they adhere to the criteria. I mean, this shouldn't be based on the will of the masses (like a contest is)... It's an album, not a popularity contest.

I would hope that participants would be mature enough to put forth their best effort and not create a "troll" tune. Let's assume good faith on the part of the participants. Especially since we all pretty much know everyone here, so it's not like we'll get random jag-offs from 4chan coming here to stir up trouble and submit garbage for the album. And if by some small chance that does somehow happen, then I'm sure we can find a way to keep such tracks out, if they really are only written to cause trouble.

Oh, btw, I'd like to suggest that we limit the number of tunes to one solo work per participant and one collab per participant. That way, it also encourages people to work together if they wish to submit more than a single tune. I happen to think collaborations are a good thing and a potential learning experience, and it's never a bad idea to encourage them (in my opinion).

[AnthonyMorgan]

Right. It's not really a problem if unpopular songs are admitted. It'll raise the number of tracks and if people don't like a tune they don't have to listen to it after all. But I can also understand if the project director wants to exclude them. That'll be up to him. Speaking of which, who will do it (and when)?

And I agree about the limitations of tunes. I was about to say the exact same thing.

[mudlord]

This is actually what I'm afraid of... That only the "popular" stuff will be included.

Yes. What worked last time was that 1 person, and one person ONLY, did the QC. NOT a jury, like you people are proposing.
That, and the...........................very unsavoury idea of voting some people suggested here just make it like any other contest. >_>

Which then makes it utterly pointless. Yes, there should be some loose theme, but it should not be put into a contest format.
That will fail. Other music projects by other parties did things the 1 QC way. And that people submit a tune, and only one person screens those tunes. And that worked for them.

[AnthonyMorgan]

NOT a jury, like you people are proposing.
That, and the...........................very unsavoury idea of voting some people suggested here just make it like any other contest. >_>

Which then makes it utterly pointless. Yes, there should be some loose theme, but it should not be put into a contest format.
That will fail.

These are just different angles of quality control. By no means it's a contest. It's not "utterly pointless" nor bound to "fail". Just different quality perspectives.

[mudlord]

By no means it's a contest.

And juries to me sound like a contest.
Same with voting. And all sorts of arbitrary controls some people seem to wanna implement.

The point those things happen, its a contest.

[Kris Troutman]

The thing is though, if you have more than one person doing the QC, then you are that much more likely to come across somebody who will take it further than the other, and then it leads to being overly strict. Also I really hope this QC is like you say, just to keep out songs that are clearly and most definitely not trying at all.

Remember that music is subjective and therefor any song and every last song ever made, is not going to be liked by every last person. The more people you throw in, the more songs you will get that are not liked. It wouldn't be very fun if an album project just felt too restricted, and that there's a chance a person may just waste their time and work on a song, just to become excluded. It's like those private night clubs. In the end, all the people who are true to themselves, will just avoid it because it isn't the right kind of people to hang out with anyway. Please don't turn the album project into that sorta thing.

Yes QC does make sense, but not if it's a jury, and not if it's too strict. It should only be there to keep out the obvious songs, and not those of people who actually tried.

[Rocco]

I really don't think it's too harsh on the contributors to require a high standard of production quality. If this is really that big of an issue, maybe we as a community should avoid projects like this in the first place.

When the end result is nothing more than "Go write a music, and then we'll put all of our musics in the same place on the internets," I fail to see the purpose of having this discussion at all.

Maybe instead of all-inclusive group projects, I'll just contact ten or so artists privately and arrange a collaborative album behind the scenes. The result would probably have a high production value, and no one would have to be told to their face "You didn't make the cut."

I'm personally more inclined to allow open contribution, but if there's no formal quality control, there'd be almost no point to doing it that way. We could already all be writing music with no stipulations on our own.

[Blitz Lunar]

other albums i've participated in have been conducted privately, with hand-picked participants. that's how most albums are made, really. it's rarely an open invitation! and it works best that way. but in this instance, being that it's a forum project, it doesn't make sense to do it privately. in my opinion, you should just allow anyone to participate if they want, and quality control should be kept to a mininum. if a song is blatantly not up to scratch then tell the author. do it all publically, help each other, etc.

as for themes, i think that's important. doesn't have to be hugely restrictive, but i think it ideally should be something interesting and inspiring, and something that could potentially result in cohesive songs. i guess the other problem to face at the end is how and where to promote the album (again, referring to other albums i've been involved in, promotion has been simple, since there's plenty of places interested in that sort of thing, but how do you market an album of random guys writing to a theme on a video game music forum?)

the first album in 2006 was poor in promotion, planning and quality control, even though the songs were good. it'd be a shame to see that happen again.

[MaliceX]

In the case of the various projects held at OCRemix, it was either entry by word of the coordinator(s) (eg: whoever's running, are the sole QC), or audition and reservation, which in this case they would have arranged a private communications area between those involved to feedback on entries, in addition to the coordinator(s)' discretion.

For an open album project of this nature, I personally believe whoever is coordinating the compilation should be sole QC, as they are the ones at the helm putting it all together in the end, and this way no one can interfere with how it goes. Sure it might compromise interest since, but to be frank I'm not confident in having the open public determine the outcome of the album before release. It will only cause unnecessary debate, unwanted feedback when it's not considered finished, spoilers, and possibly delay the release. (Kirby Milkyway Wishes project, anyone?)

Singular coordination for compilation seems more appropriate for an album project. If you wanted more than one person for quality control, 3 people max. No stupid musicality criteria or anything like that. If it works, in. If not, resubmit+brief point on need of improvement from a listener perspective only.

If qualtiy falls short overall as far as the coordinator is concerned, I agree with Rocco's point that these projects should not be undertaken in the first place. That way, the coordinator is held responsible for the lack of a release.

On the mention of promotion/marketing, I was saying on #vgmusic last night, considering VGMA (2006) is already done, it's true there was little to no promotion of it. Part of the reasons are:

1. There's no (permanent) dedicated webpage hosting the project
2. Means of promotion at the time consisted of a forum thread, which isn't really a presentable medium by any means. (eg: Comments/Reviews/Feedback in the same size/context as the headline post doesn't attract viewers, this forum prunes old threads etc.)

You will find every album release of this nature have some form of a permanent web page destination that listeners can visit to grab. Apparently someone here was hosting it on their webspace, but even then it's not even known to the community. (Heck, I don't even know where it is--as a participant.)

Really, I'm a bit skeptical on the undertaking of another album project here if there's no initiative to proper setting up of promotion which I believe should be the aim of an album release.

[Solaphar]

in my opinion, you should just allow anyone to participate if they want, and quality control should be kept to a mininum. if a song is blatantly not up to scratch then tell the author. do it all publically, help each other, etc.

Yes, this is basically one of the things I was trying to say. We shouldn't make it so strict that we needlessly exclude people. Especially people who can bring something unexpected and unusual to the table (but still cohesive with the rest of the album).

If the production isn't good enough, then we help the person until it is good enough. This isn't a contest, this is an album, where we let people's creativity flow and help each other learn, and release something cohesive and interesting for the internet community as an end result.


I want to reiterate once more that I think we should have very clear guidelines and/or criteria posted at the start, which every participant must adhere to in order to be included. These guidelines should not be overly strict or unduly limit creativity, but only serve to set a bare minimum for (1)production quality and (2)for some type of album cohesiveness.

Perhaps we could also consider (3)minimum and maximum lengths, and various other ideas, but that should all be open for discussion.

In any case, we should all work together to craft suitable and appropriate guidelines. And then vote upon whether to accept them once we're done. As an analogy: Sort of like, we'll all write up the constitution, and then vote on whether to accept the final written form of said constitution. Maybe 2/3 majority should be required for acceptance? Just a proposal.

Remember that music is subjective and therefor any song and every last song ever made, is not going to be liked by every last person.

+1

The more people you throw in, the more songs you will get that are not liked. It wouldn't be very fun if an album project just felt too restricted, and that there's a chance a person may just waste their time and work on a song, just to become excluded.

Yep, this is the reason I want to make it an inclusive album. People shouldn't have to waste their time & effort, and then get shut out in the end. That would be bull****.

Yes QC does make sense, but not if it's a jury, and not if it's too strict. It should only be there to keep out the obvious songs, and not those of people who actually tried.

+1 again

I think a lot of us are on the same page.

No stupid musicality criteria or anything like that. If it works, in. If not, resubmit+brief point on need of improvement

Yes. There's no reason anyone need be excluded if they tweak their entry to fit the guidelines.

If qualtiy falls short overall as far as the coordinator is concerned

I actually disagree with this, sort of. I feel that the pre-written guidelines are the only factors which should determine what passes and what gets excluded. I think the gate-keeping aspect of the project coordinator should only be giving advice on how to meet those guidelines. The person should not have an arbitrary say outside of the posted criteria/guidelines. The coordinator should be bound by the guidelines, just like real-life judges are bound by written laws during a criminal trial. They can't just arbitrarily sentence people to death for theft or vandalism. (Admittedly, that might not be the best analogy).

So I feel it shouldn't be "as far as the coordinator is concerned". It should be "as far as the guidelines are concerned".

For an open album project of this nature, I personally believe whoever is coordinating the compilation should be sole QC

Yes, there should be a sole gatekeeper, making sure that submitted entries adhere to the pre-written criteria. And in the case that they exclude something, they should always be able to justify that decision in writing, with regards to the pre-written criteria. As I've repeatedly said, it must not be arbitrary, nor based upon the coordinator's individual whims.

I really don't think it's too harsh on the contributors to require a high standard of production quality.

I agree that it's not too harsh, but we must collectively decided what constitutes "a high standard of production quality" and integrate it into the guidelines. In other words, it shouldn't be up to a single person.

If this is really that big of an issue, maybe we as a community should avoid projects like this in the first place.

If we can't handle it, then I'd say it's due to a lack of maturity on the part of the participants, rather than due to the idea being unfeasible. I strongly feel this can be done, and done well, be we need to think through how to do it, and have the patience to put it together.

When the end result is nothing more than "Go write a music, and then we'll put all of our musics in the same place on the internets," I fail to see the purpose of having this discussion at all.

And guidelines will solve this very thing. Guidelines will give the album cohesiveness, rather than just putting a bunch of "our musics in the same place on the internets"

Maybe instead of all-inclusive group projects, I'll just contact ten or so artists privately and arrange a collaborative album behind the scenes. The result would probably have a high production value, and no one would have to be told to their face "You didn't make the cut."

Of course you're free to make your own album that way, at any time you choose.

For those of us who'd like a true community album though, I would hope we'd have the patience to go through with the more arduous task of open participation.

but if there's no formal quality control, there'd be almost no point to doing it that way.

Which is exactly why we need to craft set criteria. That will give us quality control.

We could already all be writing music with no stipulations on our own.

People can write music whenever they want, heh, so let's not use the slow pace of this discussion as something to blame for our individual ability or inability to write music.

The issue at hand is how to best put together a vgmusic.com community album. If one person wants to run a private album with their own personal guidelines, then that's their choice. People do it all the time.

Of course, any album released under the "vgmusic.com" banner should be inclusive. A private album is likely to be exclusionary and not community-based, and therefore should not be endorsed by vgmusic.com.



As a summary to this ridiculously long post: The solutions are there, the question is, do we have the will and the patience to bring them to fruition? I can already sense the impatience from some corners, so let's hurry up and propose individual guidelines to discuss and add to the list of criteria.

[Solaphar]

Everyone interested in particpating in the album, please go here, so we can discuss guidelines.

For other things like OHC, general competitions, remix or sequencing projects, etc. I still expect this to be the thread where those things are discussed (my thread just narrows the focus onto the vgm album guidelines).


Just saying this so WIllow understands that I'm not trying to hijack his thread and drag everyone over to another thread when this one already when exists. I only want to drag over the potential album particpants so we can get some submitted track criteria in place.